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Why it’s so hard to build a jet engine by mhb

Why it’s so hard to build a jet engine by mhb

10 Comments

  • Post Author
    jmward01
    Posted March 1, 2025 at 12:14 am

    The physics of gas turbine engines is one reason I am really excited about electric aviation. People don't realize that you are temp limited at altitude. They think the air is cold, but it is about getting mass through that engine so compressing that air to the density needed brings its temp way up. Electric doesn't have that issue so electric engines could go much higher which means those aircraft could become much more efficient. People focus on the problem of putting enough energy into an electric airframe, but they don't realie the potential massive efficiency gains that it can bring because of the physics of flight.

  • Post Author
    adiabatichottub
    Posted March 1, 2025 at 12:21 am

    For anybody interested in gas turbine engineering, I recommend Gas Turbine Theory by Cohen & Rogers.

    https://archive.org/details/gasturbinetheory0000sara

  • Post Author
    ge96
    Posted March 1, 2025 at 12:25 am

    Had to last sucking in dust

  • Post Author
    orbital-decay
    Posted March 1, 2025 at 12:31 am

    One important point is missing from this: building a cheap and good engine is not enough, there are more companies and industries that can do this than it seems. But you also need the maintenance and logistics network, with a ton of professionals trained for your engine type in particular. And for that you need to penetrate the market that is already captured. This is what stopping the most.

  • Post Author
    avmich
    Posted March 1, 2025 at 1:08 am

    > Developing a new commercial aircraft is another example in this category, as is building a cheap, reusable rocket.

    Cheap rockets can be vastly simpler than turbojet engines. Reusability (I'm talking about reusability of an orbital rocket, suborbital reusable rockets can be rather simple, as e.g. Armadillo Aerospace and Masten Space achievements show) adds a lot to the order, but increasing the size the square-cube law improves things to an extent.

  • Post Author
    smitty1e
    Posted March 1, 2025 at 1:50 am

    > Building the understanding required to push jet engine capabilities forward takes time, effort, and expense.

    This occurs in a broader cultural context. A society that dreams, enjoys science fiction, rewards hard study of advanced topics and so forth, can produce the work force to staff companies capable of going to the stars.

    Let us encourage that.

  • Post Author
    bob1029
    Posted March 1, 2025 at 1:59 am

    I've always been fascinated by the power density potential of the gas turbine. Especially the micro turbine class.

    > The MT power-to-weight ratio is better than a heavy gas turbine because the reduction of turbine diameters causes an increase in shaft rotational speed. [0]

    > A similar microturbine built by the Belgian Katholieke Universiteit Leuven has a rotor diameter of 20 mm and is expected to produce about 1,000 W (1.3 hp). [0]

    Efficiency is not fantastic at these scales. But, imagine trying to get that amount of power from a different kind of thermodynamic engine with the same mass-volume budget. For certain scenarios, this tradeoff would be amazing. EV charging is something that comes to mind. If the generator is only 50lbs and fits within a lunch box, you could keep it in your car just like a spare tire. I think the efficiency can be compensated for when considering the benefits of distributed generation, cost & form factor.

    One of the other advantages of the smaller engines is that you can use techniques that are wildly infeasible in larger engines. For example, Capstone uses a zero-friction air bearing in their solutions:

    > Key to the Capstone design is its use of air bearings, which provides maintenance and fluid-free operation for the lifetime of the turbine and reduces the system to a single moving part. This also eliminates the need for any cooling or other secondary systems. [1]

    [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microturbine

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capstone_Green_Energy

  • Post Author
    gtirloni
    Posted March 1, 2025 at 2:27 am

    Aren't these engine designs patented very heavily? How were clones popping up less than a decade later?

  • Post Author
    sitharus
    Posted March 1, 2025 at 3:05 am

    A very good article, but I was disappointed to see the misunderstanding about the de Havilland Comet failures repeated

    > fatigue failures around its rectangular windows caused two crashes, resulting in it being withdrawn from service

    While the accident investigation reports refer to "windows", which really doesn't help matters, the failure point was the ADF antenna mounting cutout. The passenger windows had rounded corners and did not fail in service.

    The Comet was not withdrawn from service, they re-engineered and launched the Comet 4 (with oval windows, but that choice was to reduce manufacturing costs) in 1958, but the Boeing 707 was introduced that year and the DC-8 in 1959, ending the Comet's status as the only in-service jet airliner it held between 1952 and the grounding of the Comet 1 in 1954. The Comet 4 continued to fly in revenue service until at least the mid 1970s with lower-tier airlines.

    The decision to bury the engines in the wings was one of the deciding factors for airlines – engines in nacelles are easier and cheaper to service and swap if required. Re-engining the Comet 4 to new more efficient turbofan engines the DC-8 and Boeing 707 introduced in 1960 and 1961 respectively required a new wing, but a podded engine was much easier to swap on to an existing airframe and this was done for many of the Boeing and Douglas aircraft.

    The last Comet-derived aircraft – the Hawker Siddeley Nimrod – flew until 2011 in the RAF. They did look at upgrading them with new wings and avionics, but the plan was scrapped when they discovered that in the grand tradition of British engineering every fuselage was built slightly differently and they couldn't make replacement parts to a standard plan.

    Anyway that's my rant in to the void today :)

  • Post Author
    wyager
    Posted March 1, 2025 at 3:05 am

    What's beautiful to me is that that combustion turbines have the simplest possible thermodynamic cycle in theory (a steady input flow of X fluid/sec at pressure P, and a steady output flow of Y>X fluid/sec at pressure P), yet it turns out to be one of the most complex cycles to harness in practice!

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