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Privacy Pass Authentication for Kagi Search by b3n

Privacy Pass Authentication for Kagi Search by b3n

21 Comments

  • Post Author
    outime
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 8:12 pm

    The biggest flaw I always saw in Kagi has now been addressed by this. Thank you for listening and working to make the product appealing to (almost) everyone!

  • Post Author
    ulrikrasmussen
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 8:16 pm

    That's a cool idea! Seeing the screenshot I almost immediately figured this would be related to Chaum's digital cash and blind signatures, and it seems to be cited in the linked paper. I had thought of using blind signatures for anonymous authorization, but I was not aware that there was an actual design for that application.

    I think government issued digital identities should also use this.

  • Post Author
    cobertos
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 8:17 pm

    What's to stop someone on the Kagi side from just adding a new column to the token table that has the user (with their SessionCookie) who generated the token next to it? I don't see how this can't be trivially connected to the original token generator.

  • Post Author
    endorphine
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 8:21 pm

    Will the extension eventually be made available for Firefox on Android? Right now the Firefox extension link says that it's not compatible.

    P. S: I don't use the Kagi app in Android.

  • Post Author
    mhitza
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 8:24 pm

    The post hints at this, but having a shop where one can buy a privacy pass without an account makes sense.

    Should support some crypto currency (probably monero), and something like GNU Taler if that technology ever becomes usable.

  • Post Author
    rawkode
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 8:24 pm

    I wonder how this affects gated features and search limits?

  • Post Author
    AlotOfReading
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 8:24 pm

    Pretty cool feature. The unstated downside is that any personalization settings like dark mode, translation, and lens settings are still seemingly tied to account login.

  • Post Author
    godelski
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 8:34 pm

    This seems cool, but I still think the pricing of kagi is rather steep. It is $5/mo for 300 searches a month, which is really going to get you under 10 a day… That's insufficient. Then $10/mo (or $108/yr) for unlimited.

    I'm curious if anyone knows, are companies like Google and Microsoft making more than $10/mo/user? We often talk about paying with our data, but it is always unclear how much that data is worth. Kagi does include some numbers, over here[0], but they seem a tad suspicious. The claim is Google makes $23/mo/user, and this would make their service a good value, but the calculation of $76bn US ad revenue (2023) and $277 per user annually gives 274m users. It's close to 80% of the US population, but I though google search was about 90% of global. And I doubt that all ad revenue is coming from search. Does anyone know the real numbers? Googling I get inconsistent answers and also answers based on different conditions and aggregations. But what we'd be interested here is purely in Google /search/ and not anything else.

    [0] https://help.kagi.com/kagi/why-kagi/why-pay-for-search.html

  • Post Author
    drdaeman
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 8:43 pm

    Neat! It's rare to see that a service you use actually does something that benefits the user rather that itself. An unexpected, but a really pleasant surprise.

    I wish this extension would integrate better with the browser by automatically understanding the context. That is, if I'm in a "regular" mode it'll use my session, but if I'm in a "private browsing" mode (`browser.extension.inIncognitoContext`) it'll use Privacy Pass to authenticate me, without me having to explicitly do anything about it.

    (I don't use Orion, as there's no GNU/Linux version.)

  • Post Author
    eatyourglory
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 8:58 pm

    I have been a Kagi subscriber for a while now, but this new addition finally convinced me to start using Kagi in incognito mode! Thank you very much for adding this!

  • Post Author
    tonygiorgio
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:02 pm

    This is sick, fantastic work.

    I have built blind signature authentication stuff before (similar to privacy pass) and one thing I’m curious about is how you (will) handle multi device access?

    I understand you probably launched with only unlimited search users in order to mitigate the same user losing access to their tokens on a different device. But any ideas for long term plans here? When I built these systems in the past, I always had to couple it with E2EE sync. Not only can that be a pain for end users, but you can also start to correlate storage updates with blind search requests.

    Either case, this is amazing and I’m gonna be even more excited to not just trust Kagi, but verify that I don’t need to trust y’all. Congrats.

  • Post Author
    baggachipz
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:02 pm

    This should placate any potential subscribers who worry that their searches could be logged. Another great feature from a product which keeps getting better all the time.

  • Post Author
    nottorp
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:03 pm

    > Privacy Pass does not rely on any blockchain technology.

    Lovely!

  • Post Author
    alepacheco-dev
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:06 pm

    I think you could use zero knowledge proofs here to accomplish the same thing but without having to worry about renewing tokens etc

  • Post Author
    daft_pink
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:08 pm

    Hope they can enable this in Safari so that I can use iCloud Private Relay with it.

  • Post Author
    alepacheco-dev
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:10 pm

    Privacy Pass is great for reducing friction, but it still relies on trust in the issuer. A ZK-based approach (e.g., using zk-SNARKs or anonymous credentials) could let users prove they’re paid subscribers without revealing their identity or even interacting with Kagi’s servers beyond the initial proof. This would remove the need for trust while keeping the experience just as seamless. Would love to see more services explore this direction.

  • Post Author
    voytec
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:18 pm

    So, you can now use Kagi without giving the company your credit card details with your name? If not – that's not private. Every system is hackable and Kagi renders services under U.S. law.

    I'd guess that at least one government body already put an overall "gag order" (Prohibition of Certain Disclosure under 18 U.S.C. § 2709(c) AKA "gag order") on Kagi with additional requirement to stream search terms with metadata. They won't be able to inform users of that because that's a punishable criminal act.

    Paid search engine = nothing's private.

    And I know HN loves Kagi and you guys can hate me for this comment but you're on for a fun ride with your current federal administration.

  • Post Author
    retrorangular
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:23 pm

    [dead]

  • Post Author
    pavon
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:24 pm

    This is very cool. I'm curious about why there is a limit on the number of tokens generated per month, when this is only currently offered to unlimited accounts. Since the tokens all expire at the end of the month, tokens can't be horded to use Kagi after a subscription ends. Perhaps it is instead a resource issue where token generation is expensive. In that case though, I would think limiting tokens/day would be more appropriate – there is already going to be a spike to generate new tokens on the first of the month, so if the server can handle that they can handle some users generating a batch of tokens each day.

    This is not intended as criticism, just inquisitive.

  • Post Author
    mortar
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:25 pm

    I’m not insinuating for even a second that Kagi actually do this, but as a general rule, isn’t any privacy claim dubious at the moment given that more and more governments appear to be able to compel companies to identify their users (especially those searching for illegal content) and further forcefully insist they not disclose it?

    It’s disheartening to think the great progress we’re making in this sector could be undermined in a few seconds against any companies efforts with a trivial backdoor.

  • Post Author
    echoangle
    Posted February 13, 2025 at 9:30 pm

    I don’t really understand how the protocol can ensure that the server can’t identify the client.

    As far as I understand, the client sends some information A to the server, the server applies some private key X and returns the output B to the client, which then generates tokens C from the output.

    If the server uses a different X for every user and then when verifying just checks the X of every user to see which one is valid, couldn’t the server know who created the token?

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