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Is Ketamine Neurotoxic? by amadeuspagel

Is Ketamine Neurotoxic? by amadeuspagel

22 Comments

  • Post Author
    d1sxeyes
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:08 pm

    > However, the average ketamine “user” consumes 500-1000mg of ketamine per day, which is 100-300x as much as therapeutic use (0.5mg/kg)

    For users weighing one kilo. For users of a more normal weight, you’re off by an order of magnitude.

  • Post Author
    redrove
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:08 pm

    It would certainly explain Musk appearing to grow dumber.

  • Post Author
    johnisgood
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:17 pm

    It is not neurotoxic, in fact, it is the opposite due to it being an NMDA receptor agonist (neuroplasticity). I thought we have known this for a long time. It could be, in very high doses. Just like you can die from water intoxication too.

  • Post Author
    throwaway835174
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:18 pm

    > Nonetheless, it’s widely recognized that individuals who occasionally use ketamine find they need significantly higher doses than when they first started, even after prolonged periods of abstinence.

    Sorry for the slight divergence from the focus on ketamine, but more generally, does anyone know if this applies to other medications that alter the brain's function?

    I've noticed the same phenomenon with the adderall I am prescribed for ADHD, and despite the tolerance buildup and the offer from my psychiatrist, I refuse to bump up the dose further due to fears of long-term changes in the brain. Honestly, I'm considering ditching it altogether after about a decade of prescription because I become more paranoid over time about unknown, long-term effects. Posts like this about ketamine don't help my suspicions.

  • Post Author
    Dlooooloo
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:18 pm

    [dead]

  • Post Author
    floppiplopp
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:19 pm

    Side effect include illusions of grandeur, hubris, megalomania, the desire to destroy everything others build, and unsolicitously offering your spooge to the ladies.

  • Post Author
    colechristensen
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:20 pm

    I spent some time around a ketamine abuser and it was shocking how he seemed like… at one point he was a very capable and knowledgeable person and how much was just gone.

  • Post Author
    byyoung3
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:31 pm

    lots of compounds are neurotoxic when taken in large doses, but completely safe when taken in lower doses. This isn't really surprising

  • Post Author
    alecst
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:32 pm

    Regarding lesions, a recent pair of articles about Ibogaine.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39981248/

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11303312/

  • Post Author
    zug_zug
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:32 pm

    I'm finding this draft article pretty confusing, and am not sure why it's shared in its current state. I think it should also cite sources.

    > "However, the average ketamine “user” consumes 500-1000mg

    My impression was that the majority who try ketamine do it a handful of times in their whole lives, usually <200mg.

  • Post Author
    rscho
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:57 pm

    Everything acting on the brain is neurotoxic at sufficient doses. However, I would be far more worried about cardiovascular effects, for which life threatening complications are much more immediate.

  • Post Author
    MavisBacon
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 12:58 pm

    It's also worth noting that ketamine does appear to increase neural plasticity and can promote the formation of new synaptic connections (synaptogenesis), particularly in areas of the brain involved in mood regulation.

    That being said, I too have experienced tolerance with ketamine infusions- even with a month between doses. Always found it a bit troubling and I'd rather not have to continue to increase the dose.

  • Post Author
    317070
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 1:01 pm

    I can recommend everyone to read Felix Hill's suicide note on the topic. He was a scientist in DeepMind: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-jBoSEVlryiX1IaSzV4vKuih…

  • Post Author
    H8crilA
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 1:02 pm

    Regardless of the answer to the question posed here keep in mind that high powered psychiatric interventions can be very effective, even if they don't last forever. Whether it's ketamine or electroconvulsive therapy – it's certainly better than suicide. At least promise yourself to try such things first (in a hospital setting! yes they have those in hospitals in developed countries) before you make the conclusion that your life has become too painful to live it.

    PS. there are many other treatments that doctors may give you before reaching for the big guns; those can be very effective too.

  • Post Author
    hoseja
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 1:02 pm

    >At recreational doses

    >already after three months of high-dose ketamine use

    Recreational?

  • Post Author
    tycho-newman
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 1:29 pm

    Ketamine taken under the supervision of a physician is an effective treatment. I have seen its effects with my own eyes.

    Do not fuck around with street drugs. If the FDA didn't approve it, there could be anything in it.

  • Post Author
    mallomarmeasle
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 1:41 pm

    For anyone interested in the therapeutic (or otherwise) use of ketamine, I strongly recommend the autobiography of John Lilly, the neuroscientist who developed the sensory deprivation tank. His discussion of ketamine-aided spiritual entity discovery and dolphin communication are enlightening.

    https://archive.org/details/scientistnovelau00lill/page/n5/m…

  • Post Author
    InDubioProRubio
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 1:46 pm

    All drugs build up resistance, making a increasging of dosage necessary, and dosage maketh the poison.

    You might start out with a PTSD-tracking app, pumping a microdose of Keta via a insulin-pump every time the eldritch horror of reality hits you again and again, but you will still need to crash out of it regularly ever n months.

    Its a high-functioning half-life, but preferable to the alternatives?

  • Post Author
    cactusplant7374
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 1:52 pm

    > Ketamine abuse is well known to cause widespread cognitive and neurological impairment. However, the average ketamine “user” consumes 500-1000mg of ketamine per day, which is a lot more than therapeutic use (0.5mg/kg). One glass of wine per week is surely different from a gallon of vodka per day.

    Author is mistakenly comparing oral vs. IV routes. Of course the amounts are different because metabolism is different. How can they pontificate and make such a mistake?

  • Post Author
    superb-owl
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 1:59 pm

    > However, the average ketamine “user” consumes 500-1000mg of ketamine per day

    This is an outrageous claim with no citation. I'm a regular user, and this is roughly what I consume per month, if I'm going hard

  • Post Author
    puppycodes
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 2:19 pm

    not a neurologist but pretty sure your "gut feeling" isn't science.

  • Post Author
    golergka
    Posted February 24, 2025 at 2:32 pm

    Reading through the article and comments, it seems like there's a lot of confusion about what is considered "a user" and what typical dosages are. Obviously, a rave fiend who used to do MDMA twice a week and coke at least 5 and then moved to K would consume, completely disregarding this health but still staying conscious enough to continue dancing on a dance floor. At the same time, a tech worker who does Yoga, goes to Burning Man every year and have a long and productive relationship with psychedelics probably does a very K every 1-2 years in the right set and setting, but consumes a dose high enough to venture deep into the K-hole to seek some mystical answers — just as he does the same with DMT and other exotic Shulgin creations.

    From the anecdotal data (including the tragic suicide note that pops up on HN every now and then) and sporadical research, it's very unclear how much danger does the second scenario actually entail.

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