This weekend I had to buy a new dishwasher because our old GE died.
I bought a Bosch 500 series because that’s what Consumer Reports recommended, and more importantly, I could find one in stock.
After my dad and I got it installed, I went to run a rinse cycle, only to find that that, along with features like delayed start and eco mode, require an app.
Not only that, to use the app, you have to connect your dishwasher to WiFi, set up a cloud account in something called Home Connect, and then, and only then, can you start using all the features on the dishwasher.
This blog post is a lightly-edited transcript of my latest YouTube video on Level 2 Jeff: I won’t connect my dishwasher to your stupid cloud.
So getting back first to that old GE dishwasher, it was, I don’t know, I think that planned obsolescence is something that applies to many consumer products today.
Companies know if they design something to last only 5 or 10 years, that means in 5 or 10 years someone’s going to have to buy a whole new one.
And on my GE Amana dishwasher, it started having weird power issues, like the controls would just not light up unless I reset the circuit breaker for a few minutes. That started happening more often, and this past Saturday it just wouldn’t come on no matter what, even after I tested and re-wired it all the way from the panel up to the dishwasher’s internal power connector.
So it was dead.
Next up, I looked at what it took to get a control board. Well… $299 for a control board that was ‘special order’ and might not even fix the problem? That’s a non-starter for my $600, 8-year-old dishwasher.
Even if I got it fixed, the front panel was starting to rust out at the hinge points (leaving some metal jaggies that my soon-to-be-crawling 6 month old could slice his fingers on), and other parts of the machine were showing signs of rust/potential future leaks…
It was Saturday night, and for a family of five, a dishwasher is kinda important. We don’t have 1.5 hours every night to spend hand-washing dishes (not to mention the water bill!).
So I needed to get a new one, and it’s really hard for me to schedule a few hours for my Dad and I to get it done in the middle of the week (plus that’s multiple days without a dishwasher!).
So I did some research, and I found Bosch seemed to have the best bet for under $1,000, available locally on a Sunday.
Consumer Reports, random Redditors, etc. seemed to have some praises for Bosch—on Reddit many also praised Miele, but I couldn’t find any of those available locally. And Consumer Reports especially praised all the Bosch units, with them topping all their reliability and customer satisfaction charts!
I remembered five or ten years ago, whenever I had bought my old GE, I remembered Bosch topped the charts too, but back then I settled for GE to save a few bucks…
Installation was (mostly) great!
So I spent a little more this time, hoping for a better experience. And installation was actually great—it was a lot easier to install the Bosch than it was that the GE.
It has a plastic base that slides better on the floor, and there’s easier routing of the drain hose, inlet hose, and power wire that makes it less risky when you’re pushing the thing into the blind cutout under the counter.
The one weird thing was that whoever like tightened the feet on the bottom at the factory must’ve used an impact driver or something because they were all pr
40 Comments
mmmlinux
Stuff like this is why I never really trust "Consumer Reports" reviews.
bell-cot
Legal Action Possibilities:
– Product not as advertised, because it failed to disclose the need for a smart phone model supported by their app, and WiFi, and an internet connection, and etc.
– Product is not ADA(?) compliant, because all that extra complexity makes using it too difficult for some disabled people.
– Product is in violation of data security regulations of some US States, or countries, or the EU, because …
And in theory, any Cory Doctorow fan with the spare time could set up a web site to name & shame all the consumer products which had these "involuntary cloud" features, helping people avoid them.
pavel_lishin
I suppose this means that in the future, when I shop for a home appliance, I'll have to download their manual first and scan for things like this.
fpauser
Just return that dumb dishwasher.
Avamander
And all this stuff could work directly locally, it'd even make alternatives possible and it'd be an immensely better experience. It would eliminate the latency it takes for the requests to reach halfway across the world and back. It would also eliminate a lot of the privacy and security concerns.
What makes it worse is that these cloud connections also tend to be insecure and unreliable or both. I've seen multiple vendors (including Miele) make unencrypted connections to their cloud. (Try blocking port 80 outgoing on your firewalls.)
I've also set up a bit of monitoring for a few appliance manufacturer's clouds – these cloud services have outages all the damn time. To an extent it makes sense given that nobody is explicitly paying for them. On the other hand it's a terrible omen for the longevity of such services. (I can't wait to buy an expired appliance manufacturer's domain.)
I can't imagine a solution to this mess either besides legislation, like forcing some open access at least on EOL.
deadfece
Netgear did a switcharoo on me after the fact with my Nighthawk. When I got it, I was able to just open the app and manage it locally. I don't remember what it was but the thing I was after definitely worked a lot better from the app.
Then they updated it and required you to make a Netgear account to manage your local device.
I was able to trick it into thinking I was offline for a while, and I found that would let me log in locally, but eventually that quit working too.
I uninstalled the app and then just managed it from Firefox mobile. Their web UI wasn't remotely good, but it worked.
Luckily I didn't have to make a ton of changes to it from there on out, since I was just using it as an AP at that point. When I moved, I got a much better AP for the new place.
cf100clunk
> And on my GE Amana dishwasher, it started having weird power issues
> like the controls would just not light up unless I reset the circuit breaker
It was eerie to read that, because at ~10 years old my GE Profile dishwasher's logic board died and exhibited all those same behaviours. I followed great advice from techs but then faced the same issue: $400 to get another board, but why gamble?
I purchased a KitchenAid (with front facing, well lit and described buttons) and it has been great, with no WiFi requirement, and I felt the Bosch models were overpriced.
jmholla
> When I posted on social media about this, a lot of people told me to return it.
>
> But I spent four hours installing this thing built into my kitchen.
I sympathize with the author and what Bosch is doing here is ridiculous and I am fully against it.
But, they're not going to care about your complaints. Returning it and hitting them in the pocketbook is really the only way consumers have to send messages that companies hear.
It's a pain, but if you truly care about this, you, sadly, have to put in extra effort to fight back.
cf100clunk
Would Bosch try to go the same route as German automakers and institute a fee for ongoing use of advanced features?
Hackbraten
Required reading: Unauthorized Bread by Cory Doctorow (excerpt: [0]; part of his book Radicalized [1])
[0]: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-…
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalized_%28Doctorow_book%2…
saaaaaam
I had this dishwasher in a rental property I was living in. The landlord fitted it a month or so after I moved in because the old dishwasher died.
I was very skeptical of a WiFi connected dishwasher.
Very quickly, I loved it.
It’s actually REALLY useful to be able to get a ping on my Apple watch that the dishwasher has finished.
Once upon a time I had a dishwasher where the door popped open when it was finished. That was good too.
But with the Bosch one I can do things like mute it (so it keeps washing but more quietly), or make custom programmes (spray harder on the bottom rack because I’ve been baking).
When I moved I bought my own. And then bought a matching smart washer dryer.
I was really really skeptical of internet connected appliances like this. I wouldn’t return to a dumb appliance.
brailsafe
I put up with a variety of shitty appliances because I'm a renter in 2025 who doesn't anticipate ever owning a home, but if I were in the business of outfitting my place with appliances, they sure as shit would not be the crap quality touch sensor microwave, oven, and dishwasher we currently use, or the dumbass laundry machines with stupid arbitrary labels for each setting. The fridge is fine, it has a door, that's all it needs to do. I want buttons.
dzhiurgis
Some things – I don't see value (yet).
But others like coffee machine, lights, solar, AC, ventilation, robot vacuum, car charger, hot water heater, speakers are so obviously better when connected.
dhosek
I have this same dishwasher in my apartment (installed by my landlord). It’s not just that it requires a cloud connection for the features, but that the setup is so janky and bug-ridden that I’ve been unable to successfully make it happen.
So I just live without the extra features.
4ndrewl
I was pleasantly surprised when there was an update to my Flymo robot lawnmower app where they _removed_ the requirement to setup an account to use it. Seems most other companies are going the other way though.
btbuildem
One thing I've learned when buying a full set of appliances couple of years ago: don't read consumer reports or reviews by randos on the internet — instead, go to industry literature, and read reports by/for service and warranty providers. They have actual hard data on the types and frequency of problems across brands and models.
But back to the main theme of the article: hell to the no was my initial attitude, and I went out of my way to make sure my appliances were as simple as possible. Still, three out of the five were "wifi-enabled" and promised a world of app-enhanced wonders. Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near being set up, and I think I am lucky, all the normal, expected appliance features work without requiring these extras.
The idea of remotely preheating my oven while I am not home still makes me shudder.
NegatioN
When buying a new washing machine and dryer, I actually spent hours extra to find models /without/ app requirements last summer.
There were so few of them that did what I wanted, and also didn't require internet access that I'm worried the next time around there will be no more options where I can elect to keep them off the net. :/
m4tthumphrey
I purposely spend a lot of time ensuring that an appliance (such as dishwasher, fridge, oven etc) has no connectivity before I purchase. Even if it misses out on some of the “better features”.
Surely when all appliances go down this route it will not last long, purely down to the amount of breaches that will inevitably occur. Not to mention the backlash.
klipklop
I feel Jeff should have bit the bullet and just returned it. I know it's a waste of time, but these products have to be rejected at retail. Retailers will eventually get tired of the extra support burden and demand manufacturers drop stuff like this.
They should all get hit with the open box problem from the returns.
necovek
While it's utterly true these features will simply get abandoned by the manufacturer, people seem to discount how hard (read: expensive) it is to develop local-first software, especially the one you want to just work with a mobile app that might or might not be on the same local network or subnet (try explaining that bit to your regular Bosch customer).
Since we are, ultimately, such a minority, I am sure that not even returning the product would make the manufacturer understand that this is — really — unacceptable. The only way we can get this "fixed" is by mandating open APIs for local use by regulators, when we'll see the proliferation of custom apps.
ReptileMan
I see that the genius that decided that butonless car dashboards are a good idea, have found a new job, now that the car trend has reversed.
For me the most egregious thing was online account to use my mouse.
Also for dishwashers and washing machines – the eco and other bullshit modes are terrible. Let me waste tad more resources that I will gladly pay for and don't care how greasy the things that I throw in the dishwasher are.
m463
thanks, I'll take Bosch off my replacement dishwasher list
thombles
I was pleasantly surprised that Yamaha flirted with this then backed off. My receiver is connected to the LAN since this is helpful for streaming, and it has a companion MusicCast app for controlling it on the WiFi or playing audio stored on your phone. No messing around with accounts, it just works. A year or two ago the app started regularly pestering you to register an online account. I, along with who knows how many other people, sent them an annoyed email promising that if an account ever became required my receiver would spend the rest of its days on OPTICAL1 with a different smart frontend. Quietly, the in-app popups stopped. For now, life is good.
pipeline_peak
2007 I won’t connect my phone to your cloud
2012 I won’t connect my tv to your cloud
2015 I won’t connect my car to your cloud
didgetmaster
The only feature that would make me want to connect it to the cloud is if it would automatically load the dishes and then put them back in the cupboard when it finished cleaning them.
ryao
I was in a similar situation with a clothes dryer dying where the repair required a board that was half the price of a new one. A key difference is that I had a professional appliance repair guy look at it and he determined it needed a new board. Rather than buy a new machine like Jeff did, I made the opposite decision and paid for the board. It has been a few years since that and I have been happy with the result. I was spared from having a dryer that did not match the washing machine so I not only saved the half the cost of the dryer, but the cost of a new washer too.
schappim
I had a similar experience when I bought a pressure washer[1] that required an app. Some things just shouldn’t need one.
1. https://www.kaercher.com/au/home-garden/pressure-washers/sma…
cebert
I wonder how long it will be before we need to start paying subscriptions to use our appliances or pay per use. Bosch is leaving money on the table by only allowing you to use DRMed detergent cartridges too.
lousken
This is not just dishwashers – robot vacuums are super bad with this one, did not see any with local first app. ACs are just as sketchy. Another opportunity where EU can fix worldwide market.
saltysalt
The Internet of Things is the ultimate digital land grab.
karaterobot
> First, it lets product designers get lazy.
Product designers get blamed for this kind of thing, but I can all but guarantee the product designer just worked on the how, they didn't decide that your dishwasher needed this feature. We rarely go rogue and create a whole new system that nobody asked for, then convince a bunch of product managers, VPs, and engineers that what they thought was a shitty idea is actually worth doing. Ideas like this get given to us, it's our job to execute on them, just like engineers implementing shitty features to the best of their ability. Product designers are usually the ones who complain about bad user experience, and get told it conflicts with business goals.
brikym
It's the tech bro mentality and low interest rates that got us here. It's not enough for a company to just make something good on an open standard. No, they have to go with the enshitification/juicero model and blitzscale the whole market. Appliances should work with zigbee or similar but instead we get a dozen janky apps or 'works with Alexa'.
paradox460
My washer and dryer are miele, and the remote notifications are useful. I've used some of the remote start features to ensure the machines run when the solar is generating, but that's about it
Honestly I'd have been better with the speed queen and a relay wired into the starter switch.
As for the dishwasher, I rigged up my current one to send me end of cycle alerts by putting a current detector loop around it's power inlet, and alerting when it goes from high to low and stays that way for a period
Cymatickot
Data sniffers always looking for some dirty washing.
Ok with some stats send in quality. But these days the more complex they get, they sound like printer Error blah blah. :)
gigel82
I get everybody wants to lock you in, but how do we incentivize manufacturers to add local support? Bosch is already high-end so it's not price.
boznz
Dear Bosch, if you need someone to design a $5 control circuit that will time a few motors and actuators and last 20 years, just give me a call.
userbinator
Mine is completely computer-free, with a mechanical timer, and has only required a minimum of maintenance over the years. There's actually a somewhat underground community rebuilding/restoring vintage white goods, which I suspect may become more popular as things like this keep happening.
Unlike the new stuff that's dependent on a cloud service with rapidly changing software which may get shut down or unusable in a few years, mine has been working with the same power and water for the greater than half a century since it was made.
sghiassy
You’ve just ruined every growth Product manager’s dream
isr
In terms of "what should be done?", and I the only one who thought of the Silicon Valley episode where they immortalized Jing Yang on a "smart" fridge?
dsalzman
This is why I buy “commercial” appliances when I can. My speed queen washer and dryer each have two knobs and a start button. Thats all you need. I doubt I will need to ever replace them.