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CDC orders mass retraction and revision of submitted research by KittenInABox

CDC orders mass retraction and revision of submitted research by KittenInABox

CDC orders mass retraction and revision of submitted research by KittenInABox

62 Comments

  • Post Author
    ggm
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 4:55 am

    I'm assuming at this point refusing will be a badge of honour but one which is terminal for federal funding, in this 4 year term if not longer. You would need very high confidence in your future career trajectory to do that.

    We had a mini storm over government censorship of CSIRO science in Australia and it got pretty ugly, but this is much uglier.

    If they do the same for NSF, earth sciences, DoE and AGW it's going to be pretty nasty.

    I don't even have to agree with the science. This kind of mass bad-topic-ban is really unhelpful. I wonder if the editorial boards are also going to put up a fight? I can imagine some kind of "retracted because of Trump policy, not because the peer review process asked for it" markers.

    Genetics, and Lysenkoism comes to mind. A stain on soviet science which echoed down the years.

  • Post Author
    sambull
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:03 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    sunshowers
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:04 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    msie
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:06 am

    The right: "free speech for me but not for thee."

  • Post Author
    arghandugh
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:08 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    pixelesque
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:09 am

    It's going to be NASA next isn't it, because of climate change and the need to remove any evidence of that and other environmental changes…

  • Post Author
    hn_throwaway_99
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:09 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    zmgsabst
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:09 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    userbinator
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:10 am

    biologically male, biologically female

    The trans stuff has definitely been controversial, but those phrases are definitely not "woke"?

  • Post Author
    rhinoceraptor
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:10 am

    It's not "crimethink" anymore, it's "wokethink". It's not "Newspeak", it's "anti-woke"

  • Post Author
    tayo42
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:10 am

    "woke" seriously broke the minds of the conservatives in America. Crazy to watch their reaction to this. They can't take their own advice and just mind their own business? Leave people alone?

    The cdc is political and gets involved in cultural wars? This is already happening with this administration?

  • Post Author
    SlightlyLeftPad
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:10 am

    What a terrible blow to US Constitutional rights.

  • Post Author
    peeters
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:11 am

    It's a shame most of that research is digital, I'm sure they would have preferred a public book burning like in die gut old days.

  • Post Author
    resonious
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:12 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    isodev
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:12 am

    Remember how a few days ago, headlines were exploding how DeepSeek wouldn't answer questions about Tiananmen Square and other "sensitive topics"?

    Well, welcome to the inside part of a great wall in the making. Thoughts and prayers y'all.

  • Post Author
    thedays
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:12 am

    I am not a lawyer but this CDC order seems contrary to Trump’s recent Executive Order “RESTORING FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND ENDING FEDERAL CENSORSHIP”.

    This Executive Order states in part: “Government censorship of speech is intolerable in a free society.


    Sec. 2. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to: (a) secure the right of the American people to engage in constitutionally protected speech;

    (b) ensure that no Federal Government officer, employee, or agent engages in or facilitates any conduct that would unconstitutionally abridge the free speech of any American citizen;

    Sec. 3. Ending Censorship of Protected Speech.
    (a) No Federal department, agency, entity, officer, employee, or agent may act or use any Federal resources in a manner contrary to section 2 of this order.”

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/rest…

  • Post Author
    liamwire
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:13 am

    Overtures of fascism. I expect we’ll see thinly-veiled euphemisms and rephrasings that just evade the banned list, if not outright refusal. Ultimately this falls short for the same reason that simple filters of all kinds fail in their (apparent) objective, to the extent that it doesn’t even feel like the point is to actually stop the discussion, but rather to send a message.

  • Post Author
    necovek
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:15 am

    I wonder how will this affect private institutions and private publications?

    I could imagine people moving away from CDC into private sector, and considering it's long been a "model" US view that things progress best when done in a free market, it might actually be a boon to medical research.

    But, a couple of quick searches tells me 1/3rd of healthcare costs per person comes from the federal government (data from 2023), and NIH puts majority of it's $48B budget towards external (83%) and internal (11%) research.

    Obviously, only some research would have (or need to have) the forbidden terminology, so perhaps nothing really happens.

    Edit: and lest it remains unsaid, let's also take this with a grain of salt until it comes out from multiple sources or officially.

  • Post Author
    fishcrackers
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:16 am

    [dead]

  • Post Author
    tenpies
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:17 am

    > While the policy is only meant to apply to work that might be seen as conflicting with President Trump’s executive orders, CDC experts don’t know how to interpret that.

    This seemed key to me. The managerial/editorial layer is acting in a way that any manager would when there is unclear interpretation: risk-adversity.

    It's much easier to do than undo, so you stop until things are cleared up.

    However, it seems the organizational layer whose work is being affected is assuming this risk-adverse interpretation is the new policy coming from the top. No doubt, legacy media will take the same interpretation.

    If I were to approach this rationally, I would probably want to see clarification before running with the Hitlerian comparisons.

  • Post Author
    pjmlp
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:18 am

    This is what happens when people decide for dictorship, hard times ahead, unfortunately saying we have told you so isn't going to sort out things now.

  • Post Author
    ConspiracyFact
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:18 am

    I’m pretty sure this is the first time I’ve seen a politician make an absurd campaign promise and then follow through on it successfully. I’d find it terrifying if it weren’t about the most first-world of all first-world problems.

  • Post Author
    coldpepper
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:19 am

    Xi Jinping and his colleagues must be opening a champagne bottle over the US being this stupid. They could have never imagined an enemy so retarded

  • Post Author
    aaron695
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:19 am

    [dead]

  • Post Author
    bruce511
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:21 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    evo_9
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:22 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    xcv123
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:22 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    grahamj
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:23 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    duxup
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:24 am

    If the US chooses to opt out of science research, China and others will not.

    That doesn’t bode well for the US.

  • Post Author
    duxup
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:24 am

    Why is this submission flagged?

  • Post Author
    have-a-break
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:31 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    Taniwha
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:38 am

    Why is this flagged? this is important news

  • Post Author
    bufferoverflow
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 5:55 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    KevinMS
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 6:06 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    garbagewoman
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 6:35 am

    Bannons "flood the zone with shit" in action. How much hysteria can we drum up with something that will essentially go nowhere?

  • Post Author
    Androth
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 6:54 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    Mistletoe
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 6:59 am

    I’m living in 1984 and this isn’t a drill. I’ve never seen anything like this.

  • Post Author
    tarkin2
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:09 am

    So the US government is cancelling federal research that uses terminology it doesn't like?

    Isn't this sending an Unamerican view of freedom of thought and expression? And a very dictatorial view of the American government and institutions?

    All future research must abide by whatever histrionic whim the president has? I could imagine this being news from Belarus

  • Post Author
    yujzgzc
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:12 am

    Actual cancel culture

  • Post Author
    djfobbz
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:12 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    gmd63
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:16 am

    Which ten regulations did they cut to introduce this anti-free speech one?

  • Post Author
    impossiblefork
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:20 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    nobodywillobsrv
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:26 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    jmward01
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:28 am

    We are now at the digital equivalent of book burning in the 1930's. The parallels are pretty clear. This is the moment in history class that someone raises their hand and asks 'but why didn't anyone stop them?'.

  • Post Author
    Chance-Device
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:29 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    0xbadcafebee
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:32 am

    If everyone at the CDC quit tomorrow, how hard would it be to create a non-profit and staff it entirely with CDC personnel and resume work? Assuming somehow funding could be acquired. What else would be a barrier? Research labs? Some kind of logistical, organizational, etc partnerships? Access to data? What else? I'm half serious.

  • Post Author
    neilv
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:34 am

    Think of all the people who dedicated their working lives to improving the US and world, and even gave their lives defending the US in wars… for a wrecking crew to just come in, and shamelessly go down a checklist of every fascist dictatorship stunt they've ever heard of.

  • Post Author
    Perenti
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:44 am

    Freedom of Speech.

    Democracy.

    Equality.

    Equity.

    I used to know what these words meant, but it seems the old definitions are no longer fit for purpose.

  • Post Author
    peignoir
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 7:44 am

    [flagged]

  • Post Author
    throw_a_grenade
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 8:10 am

    > Meanwhile, chaos and fear are already guiding decisions. While the policy is only meant to apply to work that might be seen as conflicting with President Trump’s executive orders, CDC experts don’t know how to interpret that. Do papers that describe disparities in health outcomes fall into “woke ideology” or not? Nobody knows, and everyone is scared that they’ll be fired. This is leading to what Germans call “vorauseilender Gehorsam,” or “preemptive obedience,” as one non-CDC scientist commented.

    This stuff about fear is the underlying reason, and very much by design I believe. Opponents of the woke were for some time suppressed and in fear about their jobs if they even thought somethin unapproved by the DEI department. Now that the pendulum swung the other way, the people who are there (majority of whom must have signed DEI statement as part of thei recruitment) are realising that the fear can also work the other way.

    > Meanwhile, chaos and fear are already guiding decisions. While the policy is only meant to apply to work that might be seen as conflicting with [Code of Conduct], [DEI] experts don’t know how to interpret that. Do papers that describe […] fall into “[nazi]” or not? Nobody knows, and everyone is scared that they’ll be fired. This is leading to what Germans call “vorauseilender Gehorsam,” or “preemptive obedience,” as one non-CDC scientist commented.

    Because this is what was happening for quite some time.

  • Post Author
    jl6
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 8:10 am

    The search and replace they want researchers to do:

    gender -> personality

    transgender -> trans-identifying

    pregnant person -> pregnant woman

    pregnant people -> pregnant women

    LGBT -> LGB (or LGB and T separately)

    transsexual -> ??? presumably trans-identifying

    non-binary -> ??? presumably something to do with personality

    assigned male/female at birth -> male/female

    biologically male/female -> male/female

  • Post Author
    rich_sasha
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 8:22 am

    If your thesis is that Trump is awful and will be ousted, and the general public, even the MAGA crowd, will recoil at the devastation he unleashed, I suppose at least it's all mercifully quick. At this rate the US might be in a major recession this year already, with healthcare in disarray and everything else too.

    Not something to relish, but I suppose better than slogging it out for years. At least he's accelerating the timeline.

    Of course the alternative is that he's here to stay, in which case the accelerated timeline means more damage.

    ¯_(ツ)_/¯

  • Post Author
    nitwit005
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 8:25 am

    Given the costs involved in all the back and forth that a typical retraction involves, I can't see the journals wanting to deal with it.

  • Post Author
    scirob
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 8:39 am

    interesting link but too bad that Hacker News can't stay clean of politics. I always come here to chill out and read about peaceful computers

  • Post Author
    lifeisstillgood
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 9:02 am

    I am truly utterly dismayed that any fool could attack the very foundations of science like this.

    The only interesting thing is how a Supreme Court might react to a scientist challenging this blocks his right to free speech. The test would be which is greater – the ideology or the law …

  • Post Author
    noobermin
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 9:03 am

    This is literal political correctness. I guess when it's your censors in power, big government is fine and dandy.

  • Post Author
    xanderlewis
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 9:04 am

    There’s more censorship in this comments section than anywhere else.

  • Post Author
    wesselbindt
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 9:37 am

    Where they burn books, they will burn people too in the end.

  • Post Author
    concerndc1tizen
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 9:46 am

    Does this mean that they also have unconstrained control over the weaponized diseases created and stored in laboratories?

    Should I be concerned that they may break all treaties and engage in biological warfare with the EU?

  • Post Author
    aithrowawaycomm
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 9:53 am

    PG needs to comment on this, since a few weeks ago he was actively rooting for an authoritarian crackdown on wokeness:

      So what do we do now? Wokeness is already in retreat. Obviously we should help it along. What's the best way to do that? And more importantly, how do we avoid a third outbreak? After all, it seemed to be dead once, but came back worse than ever.
    
      In fact there's an even more ambitious goal: is there a way to prevent any similar outbreak of aggressively performative moralism in the future — not just a third outbreak of political correctness, but the next thing like it?
    
      The more general problem — how to prevent similar outbreaks of aggressively performative moralism — is of course harder. Here we're up against human nature. There will always be prigs. And in particular there will always be the enforcers among them, the aggressively conventional-minded. These people are born that way. Every society has them. So the best we can do is to keep them bottled up.
    

    https://paulgraham.com/woke.html

    Is this what he wanted?

  • Post Author
    gtsop
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 10:10 am

    The most amusing part about all this, is watching the akward shocked reaction of all the people who (for some reason?) believed and stated that Amurika is a somehow a free/free speech country for the ordinary folk. For everyone else, these sort of developments were as predictable as the fact that the sun will rise, because it is so freaking obvious that noone in power cares about your freedoms, not now, and not when they allowed the gender politics to flourish, and not ever.

  • Post Author
    locallost
    Posted February 2, 2025 at 10:27 am

    Is this the part of Trump being a leader when his enterprise goes bankrupt?

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