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I no longer have any faith left in the kernel development process or
community management approach.Apple/ARM platform development will continue downstream. If I feel like
sending some patches upstream in the future myself for whatever subtree
I may, or I may not. Anyone who feels like fighting the upstreaming
fight t
15 Comments
Mond_
For context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42926732
https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU…
coldtea
Martin has worked hard on Asahi, but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes. I'd give this to Linus.
AgentME
If an individual maintainer can veto critical parts of the Rust for Linux project and announce they'll do everything they can to stop it, then Linus is wasting everyone else's time pretending it's a real project. It's not a proper environment to put contributors in.
mplewis9z
Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid – I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing.
https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98…
Havoc
From what I can piece together it seems Hector is upset about someone ("Hellwig"?) doing something that was seen as intentionally sabotaging the rust efforts. Hector posted about it on socials. Linus came down on Hector for leveraging socials to fight kernel disputes. Hector quits.
No doubt that is a flawed summary so feel free to correct
codr7
[flagged]
gary_0
The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stance on C++, for instance.)
As a pilot program, R4L should have graduated or ended a long time ago. After several years of active development, its status remains unclear. Instead of cracking heads to get everyone on the same page, Linus has instead spent all this time sitting back and watching his subordinates fight amongst themselves, only to then place responsibility for the drama on Martin's shoulders. Poor form.
Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor, but he hasn't said anything explicitly. Maybe he knows he should, but he fears the shitstorm it will cause. Maybe it's time for him to rip off the band-aid, though.
And again, all of this could have been avoided if he'd just put his foot down one way or the other. Imagine how much time and energy (even just Martin's alone) could have been saved if Linus had just said "no, keep it downstream".
samcat116
This really makes me want to learn rust and contribute to Redox.
nialv7
Quoting from this thread https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/Z6OzgBYZNJPr_ZD1@phen…
> Simona Vetter: (addressing Hector) …Now I'm left with the unlikely explanation that you just like thundering in as the cavalry, fashionably late, maximally destructive, because it entertains the masses on fedi or reddit or wherever. I have no idea what you're trying to achieve here, I really don't get it, but I am for sure fed up dealing with the fallout.
> Dave Airlie: To back up Sima here, we don't need grandstanding, brigading, playing to the crowd, streamer drama creation or any of that in discussions around this. The r4l team and drm maintainer team have this sort of thing in hand, it's not like we don't understand the community of the Linux kernel, and having this first reaction to blow shit up and dramatise it just isn't helpful.
(Obviously I am taking things a bit out of context here, I recommend giving this thread a read.)
Seems to be pretty level-headed, on point, and damning. So yeah, I don't know if I am on marcan's side this time.
cosmic_cheese
I haven’t read the entire thread but based on the except I did, while I won’t claim that Hector isn’t entirely in the right there’s also major longstanding issues with the process that the kernel devs seem to refuse to do anything about.
It seems like big enough of a sticking point that if a forked alternative with a less insular contribution model appeared, it could gain enough steam to keep itself afloat. All it’d take is for someone with deep enough pockets to fund a few founding engineers to be the subject of this kind of frustration.
trollied
Linus replied:
superkuh
This is probably for the best. The rust people and their social media brigading and out-of-band attempts to control the kernel would be better off just building their own.
feverzsj
Linus should have already accepted the C++ patch instead of these Rust dramas.
markus_zhang
I have a question. Instead of fighting an uphill war in the Linux kernel community, why don't Rush developers just make a new kernel or fork their own? Sure it's going to take years, but at least they don't have to suffer the mental outrages from time to time and can do whatever they want? I mean I'd do it if that's what I want.
P.S I don't have skin and skill for the kernel game. I'm just a curious bystander.
pjmlp
Likewise most Rust efforts going on from Microsoft and Google are on downstream, Android, Sphere OS,…
This was to be expected, many of their anti-C++ complaints also apply to Rust, given that both languages share many common ideas, even if presented in different forms.