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Accountability Sinks by msustrik

Accountability Sinks by msustrik

27 Comments

  • Post Author
    gsf_emergency
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 7:58 am

    Related discussion (517 pts):

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41891694

    https://aworkinglibrary.com/reading/unaccountability-machine

    (A very short overview of Dan Davies' book, quoted in TFA, that came up with the term)

    EDIT: complementing book mentioned in that thread

    Cathy O'Neil's "Weapons of Math Destruction" (2016, Penguin Random House) is a good companion to this concept, covering the "accountability sink" from the other side of those constructing or overseeing systems.

    Cathy argues that the use of algorithm in some contexts permits a new scale of harmful and unaccountable systems that ought to be reigned in.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41892299

  • Post Author
    majke
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 7:58 am

    I didn’t realize Martin is blogging again! Hurray!

  • Post Author
    immibis
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 8:00 am

    It's interesting we always talked about the Holocaust and the Nuremberg trials when talking about accountability, as if similar atrocities aren't currently happening. It's because breaking an accountability sink of people who are long dead doesn't have any impact other than the explanation itself. Breaking an accountability sink of currently living people and currently active wars is much more dangerous.

  • Post Author
    CalRobert
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 8:07 am

    As sad as things turned out for the squirrels it’s bizarre to worry too much about 440 squirrels dying in a country with lots of meat farming…

  • Post Author
    Tepix
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 8:14 am

    I think this is one of the most fascinating aspects of solo non-stop around the world sailing: You have no one to blame other than yourself. It puts you into a mindset that is unique in this day and age. The sailors, when interviewed after their ordeal, also mention it a lot.

  • Post Author
    roenxi
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 8:17 am

    Another fun one is asking for a higher salary – for obvious reasons moderately sized companies have formal systems that make it logically impossible to do on an employees initiative (the boss doesn't control salaries, payroll doesn't control salaries and all the formal systems point to the boss and payroll). The real approach is that a worker has to somehow convince one of the people with serious power to overrule the default systems.

    But the important thing to recognise is there are always people who can overrule a given formal process and they are being held accountable to something. The issue becomes what their incentives are. In the success stories in this article (like the one where the doctor saves a bunch of people) the incentives lead to a good outcome when the formal system is discarded. In the leading ground squirrel example someone without doubt had the power to prevent the madness and didn't because their incentives led them to sit quietly in the background hidden from history's eye. Ditto the Nazi example – obviously there was someone (probably quite a few someones) who could have stopped the killing. They didn't override the system because they through it was performing to spec, and it is probably difficult to prove they were in hindsight because informal systems don't get recorded.

  • Post Author
    CalRobert
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 8:21 am

    Interestingly if you’re denied a credit card in Europe a subject access request can be very helpful for understanding why

  • Post Author
    scotty79
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 8:27 am

    Another major accountability sink is employment. Employee is shielded from financial responsibility for the damage he incurs while working. While he may be punished for disobeying orders or acting criminally, he's not financially responsible for the fallout (especially if he was only doing the things he was ordered to do and/or reasonable things). Doing a job is inherently risky behavior. If you are doing it in a context of financial amplifier (a company) in a regulated society that can quickly hunt you down and destroy your life if you misstep then in the absence of accountability sink protections barely anyone would be brave enough to get employed. That's also why LLC exist. To enable risk taking by promising to not hunt you to the bottom if you fail.

  • Post Author
    einpoklum
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 8:29 am

    > Bad people react to this by getting angry at the gate attendant; good people walk away stewing with thwarted rage.

    Notwithstanding the rest of the column, this particular example brings the following thought to mind:

    It could actually be argued that getting angry at the gate attendant is not a "bad people" response. Suppose that under those circumstances, the typical individual passenger would demand the gate attendant to either let them onto the flight, or compensate them reasonably on the spot, and if denied – even with a "it's not within my authority" – inform their fellow passengers, which would support the demand physically to the extent of blocking boarding, and essentially encircling the gate attendant until they yield (probably by letting the original passenger onto the plane), and if security gets involved – there would be a brawl, and people on all sides would get beaten. Now, the individual(s) would would do such a thing may well suffer for it, but in terms of the overall public – gate attendants will know that if they try to do something unacceptable, it will fail, and they will personally face great discomfort and perhaps even violence. And airports would know that such bumps result in mini-riots. So, to the gate attendant, such an order would be the equivalent of being told by the company to punch a passenger in the face; they would just not do it. And the airport would warn airlines to not do something like that, otherwise they would face higher airport fees or some other penalty. And once the company realizes, that it can't get gate attendants to bump passengers this way, it will simply not do it, or authorize decent compensation on the spot etc.

    Bottom line – willingness to resist, minor ability to organize, and some willingness to sacrifice for the public benefit – can dismantle some of these accountability sinks.

    a good "collective response" would be to deny the non-agency of the gate attendant. That is,

  • Post Author
    bflesch
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 8:42 am

    The reader can feel a glimpse of the author's ego the moment he explains his skills as a Google Site Reliabiliy Engineer and his glorious work on improving gmail post-mortems right after the section where a hospital team saves various people in a mass casuality situation by empowering nurses to perform formally doctor-only tasks.

    Only with a healthy dose of cynicism I can understand where he's going. While the topic of accountability sinks is quite interesting, I'm searching for the author's reflection of their own accountability.

    They worked at google, made a boatload of money for the advertising company and himself, and now philosophically lectures others how to detect and/or design accountability sinks.

  • Post Author
    rwmj
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 8:46 am

    > Eventually, employees noticed a problem: The card design only allowed for 24 characters, but some applicants had names longer than that. They raised the issue with the business team.

    I'm looking at you, ANA Mileage Club card! 24 characters should be enough for anyone according to their database. They even have a whole page dedicated to how you should work around it (I tried, this procedure & indeed it lets you truncate your name, but then you won't be able to associate any tickets you purchase in your real name with the card). https://www.ana.co.jp/en/jp/amc/reference/merit/procedure/in…

  • Post Author
    satisfice
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 8:47 am

    I am deeply suspicious of "blameless" post mortems. I agree that we should work in ways that minimize fear. We should, to some degree, celebrate the learning we glean from our failures.

    But I keep seeing "blameless" being construed as lying about why something happened. It's construed in such as way that anyone can hide from their misdeeds. People screw up, and we need to hold them accountable, and THEY need to hold THEMSELVES accountable. Not necessarily with "punishment" (what does that even mean in a professional context) but perhaps atonement and retraining.

  • Post Author
    svilen_dobrev
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 9:05 am

    Here another two of Sustrik's gems..

    Anti-social Punishment: https://250bpm.com/blog:132/

    Technocratic Plimsoll Line: https://250bpm.com/blog:176/

    seems lesswrong has all of them, older and newer:
    https://www.lesswrong.com/users/sustrik?from=post_header

  • Post Author
    throwanem
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 9:05 am

    I'd say he loves the sound of his own voice, but everything worthwhile here is in a blockquote. Oh well, even a poor collator has value as such.

  • Post Author
    cheschire
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 9:09 am

    I always remind myself when I have to go to the DMV[0] that I should plan on leaving with nothing more than another action or set of actions to take. I never enter the DMV expecting to complete a process, and the workers behind the counter always have this visible, visceral response when I DONT lose my fucking mind at their response to something. When I continue to be pleasant and understanding it’s like they suddenly come alive. It’s a depressing state of affairs because I understand exactly what they expect and why.

    0: for non-Americans and for Americans from other states that may use different terms, the DMV is the department of motor vehicles in many US states and is the central place to get your drivers license, take the drivers test, register your car, get vehicle license plates, etc. Many processes that have many requirements that often are unfulfilled when people show up asking for things.

  • Post Author
    oleggromov
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 9:09 am

    I once booked a plane ticket from my home town airport to another country. The purchase notification said something like "PVA" instead of "POV". I looked it up and turned out, the newly built airport that had this exact code was about to open. In a week or so, so I assumed that I'm indeed flying from the new one and forgot about it. The purchase was made through a booking aggregator similar to Expedia.

    On the day of travel I took a taxi to the new airport, which is 40 km outside the city. The taxi driver couldn't care less about where I was going. Upon arrival, there was much fewer people than I expected but I shrugged it off. At the entrance though I was asked where I was going and if I was an employee. Apparently the new airport was still closed and my fight was from the old, still functioning one. The one with the code not shown in the ticket purchase receipts.

    Panicking since it was only about an hour until departure, I took a taxi back to the old airport, which was a desperate 40-50 minute drive to only realize the plane had already left.

    I was flying abroad, with a connection the next morning, about 10 hours later. So I thought that the problem could be solved by just arriving there by any other flight, which I booked almost immediately. However, the airline representative (yes, there was a human to speak to that I could reach easily by phone) told me that a no-show for any segment of the flight invalidates all subsequent ones. There was no way I could convince her that it wasn't my fault. Perhaps there was a rigid process in place that disallowed her from helping, even though I'd make it to the second flight on time.

    I ended up buying 2 new tickets, of course more expensive and less convenient ones. This taught me an important and rather expensive lesson on why connected flights with a single airline are sometimes the worst.

    Funnily enough, I was bitten by this rule one more time when I didn't show to a flight in to the country due to visa issues (it was covid time) and wasn't allowed on the flight out of it because I didn't show up to the 1st flight, the flights being 1 week apart – but booked in one go.

    As to the previous situation, I managed to get compensated by the airline (not even the intermediary!) about a year later after posting a huge rant on Facebook and getting their attention to the situation.

  • Post Author
    DangerousPie
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 9:14 am

    Interesting article, but picking Johnson and Cummings's handling of Covid as a positive example is a very odd choice, given their falling out and the numerous corruption allegations and parliamentary inquiries into their actions since then.

  • Post Author
    ninalanyon
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 9:16 am

    > Bad people react to this by getting angry at the gate attendant; good people walk away stewing with thwarted rage.

    I disagree, slightly. We have to expect some degree of ethical behaviour from everyone, even those who nominally have no room to manoeuvre. If everyone in such positions were to disobey unjust orders the orders would eventually have to change.

    Walking away stewing in rage does nothing except fill you with damaging hormones.

  • Post Author
    ffsm8
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 9:24 am

    It's only related to what he wrote but it reminded me of something that low-key annoys me whenever I hear Americans talk about the Holocaust.

    I know he only touches on it very slightly and indirectly raises a related point to what annoys me about most coverage about it.

    It's pretty simply that the people that were systematically slaughtered during that time period were classified to be Jews, Gypsies and other "undesirables", but they were first and foremost German and identified as such.
    Nazi Germany didn't kill "other" people, it systematically alienated groups of the population to then eradicate them, by first walling them off to make communication impossible, then spreading enough propaganda to make the average Joe no longer consider them his neighbor.

    Seeing the social climate all over the world change, chief among them Americas, does make me think this lesson hasn't been taken in whatsoever.

    The first step to atrocities is always to cut of communication between the groups, and people nowadays are actively doing that themselves now – not artificially enforced like it was back then.

  • Post Author
    franze
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 9:24 am

    I'm now in a stage of my consulting career where I sometimes really get called into big organisation just to find out, that whatever they need to do is already panned out and they all want to do it! Still they call me cause … it's a big decision and the "higher ups" (which quite often are not even part of the workshop/session then) want an external expert voice. cause the responsibility for this decision lies with them and they can not share it up or sideways, so they share the responsibility partly external.

    As the plan quote often (not always) is already very good I mostly end up making sure the goal is measurable in a quantitative and qualitative way, trends towards to and away from the goal are visually available and distributed , and its clear who is responsible to look and report them.

  • Post Author
    xg15
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 9:26 am

    One example that's missing from the list is the TV series 24. A recurring plot point was that, yes, of course torture is bad and it's against the rules and we don't do it, etc etc, but it just so happens that here is such an exceptional, unprecedented, deeply urgent emergency situation where we need to have the information now or horrible things will happen, we need the hero who breaks the rules and goes on torturing anyway. [1]

    Fast-forward a few years and you find there were in fact many such "heroes" in reality – in Abu Ghraib and in the Black Sites – and the situation weren't exceptional at all.

    So accountability sinks can also be used as calculated ways to undermine your own ostensible ethical guardrails.

    [1] https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jan/30/24-jack…

  • Post Author
    paganel
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 10:00 am

    > airport staff threw all 440 squirrels into an industrial shredder.

    Damn, that explains a lot about the Dutch and about that part of the world, to be honest. Why can't have they more human traits? What's wrong of them?

  • Post Author
    TeMPOraL
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 10:23 am

    My go-to example of a whole mesh of "accountability sinks" is… cybersecurity. In the real world, this field is really not about the tech and math and crypto – almost all of it is about distributing and dispersing liability through contractual means.

    That's why you install endpoint security tools. That's why you're forced to fulfill all kinds of requirements, some of them nonsensical or counterproductive, but necessary to check boxes on a compliance checklist. That's why you have external auditors come to check whether you really check those boxes. It's all that so, when something happens – because something will eventually happen – you can point back to all these measures, and say: "we've implemented all best practices, contracted out the hard parts to world-renowned experts, and had third party audits to verify that – there was nothing more we could do, therefore it's not our fault".

    With that in mind, look at the world from the perspective of some corporations, B2B companies selling to those corporations, other suppliers, etc.; notice how e.g. smaller companies are forced to adhere to certain standards of practice to even be considered by the larger ones, etc. It all creates a mesh, through which liability for anything is dispersed, so that ultimately no one is to blame, everyone provably did their best, and the only thing that happens is that some corporate insurance policies get liquidated, and affected customers get a complimentary free credit check or some other nonsense.

    I'm not even saying this is bad, per se – there are plenty of situations where discharging all liability through insurance is the best thing to do; see e.g. how maritime shipping handles accidents at sea. It's just that understanding this explains a lot of paradoxes of cybersecurity as a field. It all makes much more sense when you realize it's primarily about liability management, not about hat-wearing hackers fighting other hackers with differently colored hats.

  • Post Author
    red_admiral
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 10:52 am

    > Bad people react to this by getting angry at the gate attendant; good people walk away stewing with thwarted rage.

    > You ask to speak to someone who can do something about it, but you're told that's not company policy.

    People somewhere in between realise that the point of the gate attendant (or Level 1 tech support person) is to shield management from customers, so you have to outflank the shield.

    Being yelled at by a customer is bad for the Level 1 support person, although there's usually a policy in place for phone support that you can hang up if the customer is getting aggressive. What's much worse is saying to management "hey here's something you might want to look at" and being super yelled at by their boss for not doing their duty of keeping the customer away from the higher-ups. That kind of thing can get you fired.

    But you can hack the system in many ways. The point is to find someone higher up without going through the person who's not allowed to help you, and without blaming them for doing their job.

    Some possibilities: find the higher-ups on linkedin, speak to a company rep or executive personally at an event if your professional circles overlap, send a printed physical letter to someone in control, and so on.

    Something I've seen work many times: if you're a student, find out about the university's management structure and ask for a personal meeting with the Dean of X of whoever sits above the department admin person who's assignment is "we've taken this decision, now make the students happy with it". A dozen students asking to personally speak with the Dean or President lets them know something's up and the shield was ineffective. Since there's usally some kind of statement of values about how the "student experience" is central to everything they do (read: "students are paying customers"), they can't just turn you away.

  • Post Author
    Thorrez
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 11:03 am

    > And it turns out that the German soldiers faced surprisingly mild consequences for disobeying unlawful orders.

    Huh. Franz Jägerstätter was executed for refusing to fight in the war.

  • Post Author
    spoonsort
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 11:16 am

    Ah, I love when I'm a software engineer sitting for coffee in the morning, and I open up my tech newspaper to read some extremely overly verbose way of explaining to me like I was just born that yelling at floor staff doesn't change anything (this is actually not a product of modern society, you could yell at a soldier fighting against you and that also won't change anything). Had to stop after that second massive quote. Seriously, what? I thought this was going to be about managing the 1000 compliance settings in Azure and how that sucks.

  • Post Author
    mykowebhn
    Posted May 3, 2025 at 11:35 am

    Does Kafka, the writer[1], come to mind for anyone?

    [1] I dislike that I have to specify. I wish there were still only one common reference for this name.

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