Skip to content Skip to footer

I Went to SQL Injection Court by mrkurt

11 Comments

  • Post Author
    tptacek
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 6:50 pm

    Kurt posted this to troll me. Just know my audience here was, mostly, non-technical people involved in politics in my local Chicagoland municipality.

    Permit me a PSA about local politics: engaging in national politics is bleak and dispiriting, like being a gnat bouncing off the glass plate window of a skyscraper. Local politics is, by contrast, extremely responsive. I've gotten things done — including a law passed — in my spare time and at practically no expense (drastically unlike national politics).

    An amazing thing about local politics, at least in a lot of places, is that they revolve around message boards. The boards won't be in places you want to be (in particular: a lot of them are Facebook Groups) and you just have to suck it up. But if you enjoy participating in a community like HN, you can participate in politics, too, and message-board your way towards making things happen.

  • Post Author
    duxup
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 6:55 pm

    Very interesting read.

    It does seem absurd to think of divulging schema as protected, as described it allows for a magical sort of outcome where: "well it's in a database you can't know anything about, and if you can't tell me how to find it you're sol".

    Working at a small company with lots of clients I wouldn't want to hand out DB schema outright, but I also go out of my way to search / get the client the data they want … not reject them.

  • Post Author
    bobsmooth
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 6:55 pm

    What stands out to me about this article is the time between court appearances. Seems like if you want to accomplish anything in court you need to be prepared to spend years of your life on it.

  • Post Author
    SunlitCat
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 6:59 pm

    So, you are little Bobby Tables, aren't you? :D

    [0] https://xkcd.com/327/

  • Post Author
    wswope
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 7:11 pm

    Anyone with a legal background willing to opine about potential workarounds to this ruling?

    Specifically, would a request for “data field labels” (i.e. a column list without any table structure info) likely circumvent the exemption?

  • Post Author
    pavon
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 7:24 pm

    Great read. Frustrating that the court ruled that a schema was a file layout, since I don't think it is, but at the same time if it didn't fall under that exception, there is a strong arguments that would be considered "documentation pertaining to all logical … design of computerized systems". A schema is literally, the logical design of the database, and the database is a part of the computerized system. Once it was ruled that those examples are "per se" exempt it was a long shot to argue that schema wasn't covered by any of the examples.

  • Post Author
    hnthrow90348765
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 7:25 pm

    >just self-important message-board hedging

    I can confidently say it does not stop at message boards for many people, self included

  • Post Author
    gowld
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 7:29 pm

    This is part of what discouraged me from going to law school. So much of litigation is Kabuki theater, grant rhetoric not in any way intended at achieving a just or logical outcomes, but designed only to the person in power an excuse to decide however they had already wanted to decide before the case was tried.

  • Post Author
    paulddraper
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 7:32 pm

    > I wrote that SQL schemas would provide “only marginal value” to an attacker. Big mistake. Chicago jumped on those words and said “see, you yourself agree that a schema is of some value to an attacker.” Of course, I don’t really believe that; “only marginal value” is just self-important message-board hedging. I also claimed on the stand that “only an incompetently built application” could be attacked with nothing but it’s schema. Even I don’t know what I meant by that.

    The author seems an unsuitable expert witness.

    You can't say "Even I don’t know what I meant by that" about statements under oath.

  • Post Author
    chaps
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 7:39 pm

    Hi everyone, I'm the plaintiff in this lawsuit. I'm still working on my companion post for tptacek's post! I'll have it ready Soon TM, but feel free to me any questions in the meantime here.

    While you're waiting, check out this older post: https://mchap.io/that-time-the-city-of-seattle-accidentally-…

  • Post Author
    probably_wrong
    Posted February 25, 2025 at 7:43 pm

    Random thought: someone should drive to Chicago, get a parking ticket, and then make a FOIA request for all of their information contained in that database.

    It won't be the whole database schema, but it would be a start.

Leave a comment

In the Shadows of Innovation”

© 2025 HackTech.info. All Rights Reserved.

Sign Up to Our Newsletter

Be the first to know the latest updates

Whoops, you're not connected to Mailchimp. You need to enter a valid Mailchimp API key.