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Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021) by yamrzou

Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021) by yamrzou

Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021) by yamrzou

18 Comments

  • Post Author
    dostick
    Posted February 8, 2025 at 11:30 pm

    It appears that author is from that newer generation, and completely misses points because he just don’t know. Ironically the article is an example of what Blow was talking about.
    similar happens if I talk about how Figma is destroying the design world on unprecedented scale by normalising bad UX, UI and product management found in Figma itself, and get responses from younger designers that everything is great, completely baffled.
    You have all that knowledge because you grew up in that environment. They didn’t, and not likely they can learn the equivalent of culture and experience anywhere.

  • Post Author
    gtsop
    Posted February 8, 2025 at 11:33 pm

    It is unfortunate that someone needs to pick apart a flawed thesis in such detail (as the author did with Blow). The pure empiricist is equaly as detached from reality as the pure theorist, and as such Blow is making up arguments just because they fit his experience, cherry picking examples that fit his rants and promoting the exception to be the rule.

  • Post Author
    rat87
    Posted February 8, 2025 at 11:36 pm

    No

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline…

    Of course not

    And if it were it wouldn't be something

    c or c++ related but all the banks and unemployment systems still written in COBOL

  • Post Author
    knodi
    Posted February 8, 2025 at 11:55 pm

    Why stop here… not say easy access to clean water is destroying your health. Should walk two miles to the watering hole, carry it back, collect wood for fire and boil the water your self…

    s

  • Post Author
    sd9
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 12:02 am

    Blow often makes fantastic points about development, and often completely misses the mark.

    He’s accomplished great things and has ideas worth listening to – but also plenty of nonsense that’s presented indistinguishably.

    I felt quite strongly that the collapse of civilisation talk was one of those pieces of nonsense, and I’ve largely ignored it (despite listening to it twice). I’m grateful to OP for providing a more principled rebuttal.

    Don’t even get me started on Casey Muratori, who tries to do the Blow thing but doesn’t even get the good parts right.

  • Post Author
    keninorlando
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 12:09 am

    I miss assembler and maximizing code efficiency to juggle 2k of ram.

  • Post Author
    recursivedoubts
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 12:13 am

    I teach the systems class at Montana State, where we go from transistors up to a real computing system, and I have students that don't understand what a file system really is when they start my class

    I agree that blow is wrong on some details, but I really think we need to be thinking hard around a NAND-to-Tetris style education that starts in high school for our technical students.

    I use "outdated" models like Little Man Computer and a simple visual MIPS emulator which, even though they aren't realistic, at least give the students a sense of where we came from, with a level of complexity that a normal human can get their head around. When I look at modern 64 bit architecture books that get suggested for me to teach with I just laugh.

    Anyway, not to say I agree 100% with Blow on everything, but connecting technology down to the roots is a hard problem.

  • Post Author
    lakomen
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 12:26 am

    [dead]

  • Post Author
    low_tech_punk
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 12:27 am

    I think this post is related: We are destroying software (https://antirez.com/news/145)

    I don't disagree that software engineering is not as rigorous as it was. But software has also spread into much wider area, allowing many more people to participate as programmers, all thanks to abstractions.

    I'm drawn to the romantic/pure/spartan aspect of low level programming too but I also need to make a living by solving problems in practical and scrappy ways.

  • Post Author
    ilrwbwrkhv
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 12:30 am

    I think JavaScript on the server and React and these things has really made the web a mess of software development compared to how little stuff it actually does.

    I know for a fact a bunch of kids now do not even know that HTML is what gets rendered in the browser. They think that React is itself what browsers render.

    Not to mention the absolute idiot of a CEO of Vercel who thinks React is the Linux kernel of development.

  • Post Author
    ninetyninenine
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 12:53 am

    No it’s not. Software is killing the US and not because it abstracts low level stuff. It’s because it abstracts reality in such a way that the US is becoming a nation of software engineers ignorant of even how to build the stuff it programs. We’ve moved up the stack and moving up the stack requires people knowledgeable about the bottom.

    One can’t exist without the other so the world isn’t getting destroyed. China is handling the bottom of the stack. And by understanding the bottom of the stack they also become good with the top.

    I used to hear shit like China only knows how to manufacture stuff the US is good at design. And I keep thinking well if you submit an entire design to China to manufacture you don’t think they will figure out how to design? Knowing how to design is easy. Manufacturing or turning that design into reality is hard.

    Software isn’t killing civilization. It’s killing the US and that may seem like the world if you lived here all your life.

  • Post Author
    torlok
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 1:00 am

    As somebody who works in embedded, and does kernel programming and low level networking, I wish any of Blow's fear mongering was true. It would do wonders to my feeling of job security and self importance.

  • Post Author
    harrall
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 1:01 am

    If an older web developer rants about abstraction, they will target React developers.

    If a Python dev rants about abstraction, they will target older web developers.

    If a C++ application dev rants about abstractions, they will target Python developers.

    If a firmware dev rants about abstractions, they will target application developers.

    If an electrical engineer rants about abstractions, they will target firmware developers.

    Drawing the line for “excessive abstraction” based on what you personally know and calling everything afterwards as “killing civilization” is quite a take.

  • Post Author
    tolciho
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 1:25 am

    > I'm not a historian and will not comment on this first part of the talk. It doesn't matter much,

    Okay.

    > What is robust? … Is it the multi-year uptimes of a plethora of …

    Big uptime systems are dubious. Probably a lack of kernel patches, hardware patches, and who know if, on reboot, the system will actually boot and start the relevant services correctly. A bank once had their mainframe fail, and they were flailing around for a good long while, possibly because it had been about a decade since their last failure and everyone forgot what to do, or maybe Bob had retired. Or how about that host that boots four years into the future and now various things are quite broken? There was NTP, but an unrelated change had broken that on some firewall. "Normal Accidents" are somehow a thing in complex systems, as are black swan events. Quite possibly either or both were involved in the late bronze age whateveritwas, but naturally history doesn't matter much.

    > Oh, and garbage collection and functional programming aren't new abstractions. Lisp did both in the late 1950s

    PAIP (Norvig) recounts that the garbage collection was so bad it was turned off and the LISP machines were let run until they ran out of memory, at which point they were rebooted. I guess this is a point for improved robustness in certain areas, though there are probably still "/5 * * * reboot-something" type cron jobs out there for services that leak too much memory. No, management did not grant time to fix that service last I had to put in the most recent five minute reboot script. Many don't get such a intimate view of the rusty bowels of the internet.

    > open up a Unix-type command line in Linux/MacOS/*BSD/WSL, type "ed" at the prompt and see how far you get with your text editing

    Some wacky systems do not install ed, or link it to nano or some other nonsense, so you may need to actually install ed to get the standard editor. If you happen to be stuck on such a system, `busybox vi` is tolerable—vim gussied up with color spam is not, especially the unreadable blue on the black console—though learning enough about ed might be good if you, hypothetically, ever have to fix an old system over a serial line at 3AM in the morning. There isn't much to learn for such cases, "a" to append new lines, "." on a line by itself to end that, "/foo" to search, "c" to change that whole line (and then the "." thing) and then "wq" to save. Great for edits were you don't want other folks seeing the contents of, say, /etc/hostname.wg0. Or sometimes a cat of the file should be done to preserve it in the scrollback buffer, which has saved a non-zero number of configuration files across the internet. Ideally this sort of disaster training should be practiced by some now and then, but that does take time away from other things.

    Back to the unloved history thing. A collapse can take a few centuries, which may be a problem given the recent emphasis on the current sprint or how the stock will be doing Tuesday (as opposed to the lease for Hong Kong, though a hundred years is a magnificently short period of time). So a few folks crying wolf or playing Cassandra might be a good thing to help point out past issues and maybe from that future shocks can be made less bad.

    And of course one should beware the C people.

  • Post Author
    Sparkyte
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 1:33 am

    In a sense abstraction does. You stop learning the fundamentals of how something works. Long enough as time goes by no one knows how the fundamentals work and a company fails.

  • Post Author
    foxes
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 1:33 am

    Billionaires are killing civilisation

  • Post Author
    travisgriggs
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 1:33 am

    Not all simplifications are abstractions. Not all
    abstractions are simplifications. But the pursuit of simplification is usually what motivates an abstraction. I don’t think that abstractions kill software, or civilization for that matter, but ill begotten abstractions in the name of short win simplifications, puts a drag on the flexibility and agility and approachability of either.

    Take syntactic sugar in just about any language. There’s usually a breaking point, where you can say the localized gain in simplification for this particular nuance is not worth how complex this tool (language) has become. People don’t make more mistakes in a syntax heavy language because of any particular element, but because using the tool well to solve complex problems just gets difficult (regardless of what a compiler might guarantee you).

    I look at the complexity that async and coroutines adds to my experience when programming anything “threaded like” in Kotlin compared to how I deal with the same sorts of problems in Elixir/Erlang and it’s just night and day difference. Both have abstractions/simplifications to the age old problem of parallel/async computing, but one (the former) just multiplies simplicities to end up with something complex again and the other has an abstraction/simplification that Just Works(tm) and really is simple.

  • Post Author
    bionhoward
    Posted February 9, 2025 at 1:43 am

    One reason I like Rust is it lets me replace a lot of high level Python stuff with faster and more correct code while also opening access a new world of low level C stuff I never had an opportunity to learn about, it’s been super fun to tinker with and I look forward to keep working with it!

    Definitely good to broaden our horizons but also crucial to maintain focus…there is so much to learn, how can we balance the joy and productivity of software with the strategic imperative to build locally grown hardware?

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